The World Against God...
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David Bandel wrote:
>> Matt,
>>
>> please read to the end before going wild.
>>
Naturally and likewise.
>>
>
>>>> It's not sense, reason, and intellect which is from Satan.
>>>> Unfortunately, he seems very adept at corrupting something good
>>>> with a very small twist. Sense, reason, and intellect are gifts
>>>> which can be good, and can be distorted. Ever hear of the term
>>>> "garbage in, garbage out"? When reason loses all foundation in
>>>> anything greater than that of our own observation and guesswork
>>>> (see "circular reasoning"), problems result. The conflict is not
>>>> "faith" versus "thought", but "God-based" or "Human-based"
>>>> religion. Christianity is an example of a God-based religion (or
>>>> belief system). Humanism (covers much of the "scientific"
>>>> community) is the primary human-based religion (or belief
>>>> system).
>
>>
>>
>> Wow. Talk about twisting. Your arguments argue against themselves.
>> Garbage in-garbage out is what follows. please keep reading.
I'm afraid that doesn't make sense without some details. Please avoid
vague generalizations.
>>
>
>>>> Each requires a significant amount of faith. Christianity
>>>> requires faith that God exists, is good, and loves His creation
>>>> more than any of us could imagine... so much so that even in our
>>>> willful disregard for the good of others or Him, which separates
>>>> us from fellowship with God, He sent Jesus to endure suffering,
>>>> death, and hell in our stead. Love and care for others,
>>>> selflessness, self-control, with acknowledgement and thanks to
>>>> God. These are the basic tenets of the Bible, which is the
>>>> foundation of truth for this religion. As such, they believe
>>>> that God created the earth, as detailed in Genesis chapters 1 and
>>>> 2. They believe that all mankind is sinful (Romans
>
>>
>>
>> READ, them REREAD those two chapters carefully. They are mutually
>> exclusive accounts of two separate creations. The first is true
>> and supports what you say is incorrect, the second is a wild
>> fantasy that flies in the face of what is known to be true (but
>> does support your speculative theology).
I have, many times. I suggest you do the same. Consider the context
of the writing. You will find two different accounts of the same
story which do not conflict, but augment. One from a chronological
standpoint, one from a more story-telling approach, where chronology
is not the main point. If you have a faulty Bible, I can provide you
excerpts from mine since it's OSS.
>>
>
>>>> 3:23) and that a price must be paid for that sin, to allow us to
>>>> commune with God, and the cost is our life (Romans 6:23). They
>>>> also believe that Jesus came, taught us how to live though a
>>>> sinless life, and then paid the price for our sin with His life,
>>>> proving victory over death by raising to life again (Matthew,
>>>> Mark, Luke, John... pick one and look near the end). They also
>>>> believe that Jesus will come again to separate His followers from
>>>> those who are "jaundiced" and unbelieving, destination: Heaven
>>>> or Lake of Fire, respectively. Regardless of who has failed these
>>>> tenets in the name of God, the principles remain the same. Some
>>>> examples of people who have done attrocious things in the name
>>>> of God: Hitler, Crusaders, Usama, etc....
>>>>
>>>> Humanism requires faith in the scientific community. While
>>>> humanists will tell you otherwise, this is a significant step of
>>>> faith. Particularly true since there exists a history of biased,
>>>> directed research, sometimes with incomplete, incorrect, or even
>>>> falsified data to prove the hypothesis set out. While there are
>>>> many reputable, and even Christian members of the scientific
>>>> community, some (or much) of this research has among its
>>>> hypothesis that God cannot exist. Evolution and the big bang
>>>> theories, both currently taught as fact in public education, are
>>>> examples of this research. They portray an alternative to
>>>> creationism which presupposes the non-existence of a diety,
>>>> regardless of missing data, data suggesting the opposite, and the
>>>> question "where did the explosive matter come from?" While
>>>> there are many scientists with integrity, seeking truth, it
>>>> appears the majority has been lead to believe that there can be
>>>> no diety in science. Unfortunately, since there are so many to
>>>> choose from, one
>
>>
>>
>> Simply a wild, uninformed theory. The bible supports scientists
>> and vice versa.
>>
>> If you believe Genesis Chapter 1, then it basically supports these
>> "big-bang" theories (which Chapter 2 doesn't, so pick which is the
>> basis of your belief). What is beyond the universe? Just because
>> you can't fathom it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
In a perfect sense, the Bible supports science and scientists...
scientists do not always support the Bible. It isn't a matter of God
not being able to use a "big bang" to set our universe in motion, but
the fact that the "big bang" is used as a way for the world to exist
without the presence of a creator. Evolution? why not. Oh, other
than the fact that there are many required pieces of evidence which
simply do not exist. Like the picture in many science texts of the
evolutionary skeletons from the Smithsonian. At the Smithsonian there
is a plaque next to the exhibit stating that many of the skeletons do
not exist in the fossil record, but are artist's renditions of what
they should look like. Anything in the textbooks? Nada.
Again, read chapter 2, maybe just once, and understand the Hebrew
culture a little and you'll find that Chapter 2 is consistent with the
story-based culture and oral tradition of the old testament, recapping
before driving the important points home. The Hebrew culture is such
that important things are repeated, not always verbatim.
I agree that one cannot know more than one knows at any given point.
There is no reason to summarily dismiss the unknown... neither is
there reason to accept and teach it as fact. Move back to the states
and hang out in science class. I believe our school systems would be
much better for your presence.
>>
>
>>>> simply needs to find research which supports what one wants to
>>>> believe. - From the idea that we come from apes, humanists are
>>>> able to trivialize the lives of those who are inconvenient, like
>>>> unborn children, aging, and mentally or physically handicapped
>>>> people (see Terri Shiavo). They will also trivialize this
>>>> description since it doesn't show them in a good light, and Right
>>>> is determined differently for everyone, according to humanism,
>>>> because we are what's important.
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>>>>>> No, I suspect it has more to do with whatever diety's disciples
>>>>>> have done for themselves and to the rest of the world, and the
>>>>>> courts have become as jaundiced as many of us "non-believers".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>
>>>>
>>>> Jaundiced in understandable, considering some of the misguided
>>>> people who somewhat miss the point. That is still, however, your
>>>> choice. We are all responsible for our choices, which is the
>>>> flip-side to free-will.
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> Every religion I've had contact with has always preached:
>>>>>> tolerance, love, servitude.
>>
>>>>
>>>> I know of no Christian church which teaches "tolerance".
>>>> Tolerance is not a tenet of the Bible. Love is the closest
>>>> thing, as is described below. Tolerance in its popular
>>>> definition is more "acceptance", both of a person and their
>>>> behavior. The Christian church teaches "Love the Sinner, Hate
>>>> the Sin" which is not good enough for modern-day "tolerance"
>>>> preachers.
>
>>
>>
>> Please read your Bible again. Jesus does teach tolerance. "Let he
>> who is without sin cast the first stone." Not sure how else you'd
>> classify that. He didn't ask you to love the person, just not
>> "cast the first stone" (which sounds an awful lot like the
>> definition of tolerance to me): The endurance of the presence or
>> actions of objectionable persons, or of the expression of offensive
>> opinions; toleration. [1913 Webster]
As I said, Tolerance in America simply does not mean what Webster
indicates. You and I are on the same page here. Tolerance today is
used to promote the condemnation of Christians simply because we
believe that living a homosexual or promiscuous lifestyle is wrong.
To even say that is borderline "hate crime" these days. It ain't
about clubbing sinners to death, it's about caring for them. I
believe that my friends living these lifestyles are suffering very
real present and future damage to themselves, both in their
relationships with God and with other people, not to mention
emotionally. I haven't killed them, abused them, or otherwise hurt
our friendship, except to make it clear that I disagree with their
choices. So far not many have told me to go @#$% myself, so we
continue being friends.
Jesus certainly told us to love other people. The two greatest
commandments from Matthew 22:39:
36 ?Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the law??
37 Jesus said to him, ??You shall love the Lord your God with all
your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.? 38 This
is the first and great commandment. 39 A second likewise is this, ?You
shall love your neighbor as yourself.? 40 The whole law and the
prophets depend on these two commandments.?
By loving my neighbor as myself, I ache for my friends' lack of
relationship with God, I don't hate them for it.
>>>>>> Every religious fanatic that invokes the name of a diety,
>>>>>> however, tends to display intolerance (because how could you
>>>>>> _not_ believe as they do), hate (historically, the most
>>>>>> protracted wars, the heinous actions were all in the name of a
>>>>>> diety), and they expect you to serve them (vice their diety).
>>
>>>>
>>>> It's one thing to identy that which is wrong. It something else
>>>> to know how to respond to it. It is yet something quite
>>>> different to justify awful, hateful acts under the guise of
>>>> religion. The guilt of all mankind is selfishness. Left
>>>> unchecked, it leads to greed, pride, and everything they become
>>>> or produce.
>>>>
>>
>>>>>> No, I expect little of hateful, close-minded, hypocritical
>>>>>> folks. And once the name of a diety has been invoked, you can
>>>>>> forget using reason.
>
>>
>>
>> [huge snip of religious demagoguery]
>>
>> While I could waste days ripping each of your arguments apart (easy
>> since they have no real substance and end up falling back on "well
>> you just have to believe".), I don't have time. We can revisit
>> each of your arguments in the near future one by one if you like,
>> but going through all the above is too much all at once.
So far, you have ripped exactly zero apart, and your arguments have
included as much substance as you suggest mine to have. The simple
attempts sound like a uneducated, misunderstanding proffered by those
who choose not to understand, in a sad effort to dismiss the Bible's
relevance.
Meanwhile, I'm interested in just what you do believe. You obviously
feel attacked in some way.
>>
>> Meanwhile, just start with Genesis Chapter 1. When you get to the
>> last verses (about 5 verses from the end), start questioning every
>> verse. Does it agree or disagree with what came before. Remember
>> that the Bible is full of parables that can easily be taken out of
>> context.
In the process, about 7/8 through. Although the questioning I do is
probably different than your own. I ponder what the value and meaning
is, based on what I already have read, since each book is based on
others but written by different authors. I do not look for ways to
misconstrue it in order to rant at Christians. So far I have gained a
lot better understanding if God's nature, His rules, our lives, and
the troubles we as a world face today.
I would recommend trying the same with scientific "fact" which is
experimented, collected, and interpreted by someone other than
yourself. For example, if it appears to disprove Genesis 1's one-week
model, or Romans 1's homosexuality disclosure, do your own research.
Investigate the involved "science" and you will find that studies are
inconclusive or the evidence is trusted when it should not be. For
example, carbon dating of "billions" of years when can only prove the
measurement data from the last century or less. Even with that data,
we proved that a living cat was several thousands of years old. We
can study Galileo's and Newton's laws on our own. That's what I love
about physics, and why I aced it in high school and college. But we
can only prove them now. We can't even prove they were the same 5
thousand years ago. We just don't know and can't prove anything
scientifically about them. This is why so much of controversial
science is a belief, seldom fact.
>> Ask yourself if what your're reading agrees with what we know of as
>> physical reality or flies in the face of even common sense (and
>> previous chapters and verses).
I have, and they do not. I'm more than happy to discuss those which
you may have difficulty understanding. I don't have all the answers,
but I'm interested in the discussion.
>> Play "devil's advocate" to every phrase, remembering that these
>> phrases also need to be kept in context and not isolated (as even I
>> did above).
I attempt not to be the devil's advocate, but do weigh the words
against what came before, and after.
>> When you've reexamined everything and decided not to "just
>> believe", you'll be able to see the holes in your own arguments,
>> and perhaps strengthen your own faith at the same time.
Studying the Word does indeed strengthen my faith and my beliefs. I
do not "just believe". I understand what I believe and why. Although
I find it intriguing and amusing that you would think I do. There are
some things which I am still chewing on, like Matthew 22:21-22, or
Mark 16:17-18. But if you are interested in my seeing holes in my
arguments, feel free to enlighten me, since obviously your previous
suggestion hasn't worked.
>> I am _very_ comfortable in my belief system and welcome someone
>> pointing out the holes.
Please share your belief's and any faith you may have. I may not
agree, but I don't necessarily think that we are on totally different
pages. You seem to feel that I have attacked your beliefs, but I
still do not even know what they are... just what you described as
"jaundiced and unbelieving".
>> What I don't like is someone screaming at me that I just have to
>> believe the way they do (argument for it or not).
I'm sorry that someone has screamed at you, I assure you that is not
my typical method of discussing spiritual things. I also would not
tell you that you have to believe as I do. I do not believe exactly
the same as most common denominations of Christianity; I believe the
Bible is God's Word.
Even if I said that you *do* have to believe as I do, what difference
does it make? Are you not a grown man, and able to make up your own
mind? Do my words have such great impact in your life? If so, I am
most honored. Truth is, I have a lot of respect for you, regardless
of your temper and general irritated bedside manner.
>> I also feel obliged to play devil's advocate when I see what I
>> believe is demagoguery.
I, too, like to toy with idiots (please correct me if I misinterpreted
your last comment).
>> Keep believing as you want, but telling others if they don't agree
>> with you they're wrong just doesn't cut it with me.
I don't recall telling anyone that they were wrong. If my arguments
convicted you to that belief, feel free to reconsider you beliefs and
stance.
>>
>> And we're back to tolerance again.
>>
David, honestly, I care a great deal for you. I am writing this
because it is important to me, and in my beliefs, it is important to
you and everyone else in the world. I am perfectly willing to
tolerate you and others I may disagree with. Tolerance does not
preclude one party from being wrong. This is probably not what you
want to hear, but I strive to love you even if it is unidirectional.
That is not only my commandment from Jesus, but it is the way of my
heart. I sometimes like to get involved in heated debate, but I'm
currently writing about what matters. Tolerance is not enough.
Tolerance ends. Irritation levels tolerance. Love is what is
required. Obviously that can be misconstrued so please refer to the
previous definition from I Corinthians 13:4-8.
I will continue to tell others when what they say and do does not
match up with the Bible's teaching, and welcome others to do the same
to me. Mine is journey and I am not perfect.
It is my belief that those who fail to acknowledge God and give thanks
to Him are indeed wrong, to name but one example. But it is every
man's right to be wrong. Heck, I take full advantage of that right
quite frequently. :) In this case, however, there are consequences
for being wrong, over which none of us has any control.
It would seem that people who cannot handle being told they are wrong
are either immature in their beliefs or have a "god" complex and
cannot be wrong.
I could be wrong right now. Heck, don't take my word for it. Prove
me wrong. I've shared some of my beliefs, and provided the basis for
my evidence, the Bible, which I and a good many other intelligent
people believe to be God's Word. Show me your evidence, and provide
the reasons for your faith in the sources.
Matthew 15:12-13
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Matthew Carpenter
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